Comments on: What is sin ? Or – in nature, there is – no such thing – as sin or sinners. http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/ Religion. Atheism. Meaning of life. Well-being. Self-value. Nature's laws. God. Gods. Thu, 05 Apr 2012 05:34:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: aforcier http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3887 aforcier Thu, 05 Apr 2012 05:34:39 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3887 You're welcome. You’re welcome.

]]> By: anat http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3886 anat Thu, 05 Apr 2012 00:37:40 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3886 Fascinating reading - thank you so much. Fascinating reading – thank you so much.

]]> By: aforcier http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3854 aforcier Thu, 29 Mar 2012 18:20:58 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3854 The religious "enforced" from birth view of man's place in nature. A "God" has placed man in nature. Therefore man is not of nature, but of the "God", Being in the image of the "God", man is above nature.(A high perch that is having us spit out of the earth.) Except, we are no different than any other forms of nature.We are not above or below anything... within or without. We are not only of nature, we are nature. We are (and enact) all the principles, forces, powers, laws that is nature. We are natural law! . How do we deal with our destructive tendencies? We adopt "societal" rules of conduct. And modify them to needs... attempting to find equilibrium between the needs of the individual, the needs of the community, the needs of the strong, the needs of the weak. The game nature plays is powerful, all-encompassing, continuous. As we open our senses into this world, we should be taught the rules of nature... why they are as they are. (Instead, we are sent to church and told that we are defective!) The religious “enforced” from birth view of man’s place in nature. A “God” has placed man in nature. Therefore man is not of nature, but of the “God”, Being in the image of the “God”, man is above nature.(A high perch that is having us spit out of the earth.) Except, we are no different than any other forms of nature.We are not above or below anything… within or without. We are not only of nature, we are nature. We are (and enact) all the principles, forces, powers, laws that is nature. We are natural law!
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How do we deal with our destructive tendencies? We adopt “societal” rules of conduct. And modify them to needs… attempting to find equilibrium between the needs of the individual, the needs of the community, the needs of the strong, the needs of the weak. The game nature plays is powerful, all-encompassing, continuous. As we open our senses into this world, we should be taught the rules of nature… why they are as they are. (Instead, we are sent to church and told that we are defective!)

]]> By: Tim http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3853 Tim Thu, 29 Mar 2012 17:20:59 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3853 I'm not sure you can call that a fact. You may accept the idea that it is impossible for anything that is "possible" to be "unnatural" but there are many throughout time who would argue against such an idea being a "fact". It seems your Natural Philosophy has even gone so far as to throw out the idea of "Natural Law" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law) and can be reduced to the idea that "hey, it's all good". It also seems to reduce to a sort of nihilism. "There is no good, there is no bad, there just is what is and its all okay because without bad or good we can't make a judgement." I’m not sure you can call that a fact. You may accept the idea that it is impossible for anything that is “possible” to be “unnatural” but there are many throughout time who would argue against such an idea being a “fact”. It seems your Natural Philosophy has even gone so far as to throw out the idea of “Natural Law” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law) and can be reduced to the idea that “hey, it’s all good”. It also seems to reduce to a sort of nihilism. “There is no good, there is no bad, there just is what is and its all okay because without bad or good we can’t make a judgement.”

]]> By: aforcier http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3852 aforcier Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:59:06 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3852 Tim, good morning again. Lets begin by a most important fact:There are no unnatural... what ever... occurrences, events, thoughts, dreams, acts. All that comes into existence...is natural,is a product of nature. It is therefore very important that we understand our roots, our make-up. Nature is not always a pretty thing. (that is written in its design). Religion try to bypass nature's way by inventing out-of-nature rules. And it call this "mess" morality, thinking that with the protection of a "God", after-life rewards or punishments, fear, guilt, defining what is good, what is bad, what is right, what is wrong, we would not tear each others and everything about us to shreds. Still, nature goes on, in the hearts of mankind, in accordance to its own design... its own merry way... our own merry way. Tim, good morning again. Lets begin by a most important fact:There are no unnatural… what ever… occurrences, events, thoughts, dreams, acts. All that comes into existence…is natural,is a product of nature. It is therefore very important that we understand our roots, our make-up. Nature is not always a pretty thing. (that is written in its design). Religion try to bypass nature’s way by inventing out-of-nature rules. And it call this “mess” morality, thinking that with the protection of a “God”, after-life rewards or punishments, fear, guilt, defining what is good, what is bad, what is right, what is wrong, we would not tear each others and everything about us to shreds. Still, nature goes on, in the hearts of mankind, in accordance to its own design… its own merry way… our own merry way.

]]> By: Tim http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3850 Tim Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:33:11 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3850 "You simply know" I guess my point is that it takes a type of faith to believe that you truly "know". One must take it on faith that ones experience is true and not just a synthetic delusion induced by who knows what. Sure, that faith might be easier to have but it is not scientific proof. Also, what about people who do everything you do as far as experiencing nature and "simply know" there is a creator? How can they be wrong. I submit they cannot. Both are conclusions based on subjective information. So at the very least there doesn't seem to be a problem believing either. To each his own. I also don't get the "nature is everything so everything is natural" idea. This seems to ignore the idea that natural things have a primary end or function to which they are natually disposed. Rain distributes water, water supports life, life reproduces itself, etc. It is of course possible to use things for other than their primary end but I don't see how that is "natural". It seems by the logic of "nature is everything therefore everything is natural" opens to doors to some very unnatural things. For example, since I am of nature and I like to watch things burn and fire is natural and forests are natural therefore it is natural for me to want to burn down as many forests as I can and I should go ahead and do so. I'm sure those with even an iota of imagination can come up with much worse examples. “You simply know”

I guess my point is that it takes a type of faith to believe that you truly “know”. One must take it on faith that ones experience is true and not just a synthetic delusion induced by who knows what. Sure, that faith might be easier to have but it is not scientific proof.

Also, what about people who do everything you do as far as experiencing nature and “simply know” there is a creator? How can they be wrong. I submit they cannot. Both are conclusions based on subjective information. So at the very least there doesn’t seem to be a problem believing either. To each his own.

I also don’t get the “nature is everything so everything is natural” idea. This seems to ignore the idea that natural things have a primary end or function to which they are natually disposed. Rain distributes water, water supports life, life reproduces itself, etc. It is of course possible to use things for other than their primary end but I don’t see how that is “natural”. It seems by the logic of “nature is everything therefore everything is natural” opens to doors to some very unnatural things. For example, since I am of nature and I like to watch things burn and fire is natural and forests are natural therefore it is natural for me to want to burn down as many forests as I can and I should go ahead and do so. I’m sure those with even an iota of imagination can come up with much worse examples.

]]> By: aforcier http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3844 aforcier Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:14:44 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3844 Hummm!....I experience nature. As it is, where its. Nature, when we remove our mind from our ingrained teaching speaks...of it self, for itself. It is not a question of faith; it is a question of listening, of observing, of reflecting. These are all nature based endeavors. Yet nature in interaction with us can leave magnificent impressions on our consciousness, even mystical.The space you presently occupy does not require faith or belief to accept that you are there. You simply know. That is the starting point of a "natural" understanding of reality. As to interchanging nature with "God", it is a false trail. It is another path travelling within the religious fortress but it only leads to shadows, and dead ends.You fell that something is amiss. You see a light, but are heavy with sleep. You are still in a dream world. What is worst, you are wasting you time. The "God" is not nature. In human or "principle" form. Nature is of itself. And functions very well that way. . Funny enough... Yep! Nature is not an argument, it is a presence. A presence to be sensed (science). Then its laws deduced (reason). A child who would descend in a river and noticed the flowing current, could deduce : nature flows. This child's life would have far greater meaning than the one who is made to claim: I"m a sinner! Hummm!….I experience nature. As it is, where its. Nature, when we remove our mind from our ingrained teaching speaks…of it self, for itself. It is not a question of faith; it is a question of listening, of observing, of reflecting. These are all nature based endeavors. Yet nature in interaction with us can leave magnificent impressions on our consciousness, even mystical.The space you presently occupy does not require faith or belief to accept that you are there. You simply know. That is the starting point of a “natural” understanding of reality. As to interchanging nature with “God”, it is a false trail. It is another path travelling within the religious fortress but it only leads to shadows, and dead ends.You fell that something is amiss. You see a light, but are heavy with sleep. You are still in a dream world. What is worst, you are wasting you time. The “God” is not nature. In human or “principle” form. Nature is of itself. And functions very well that way.
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Funny enough… Yep! Nature is not an argument, it is a presence. A presence to be sensed (science). Then its laws deduced (reason). A child who would descend in a river and noticed the flowing current, could deduce : nature flows. This child’s life would have far greater meaning than the one who is made to claim: I”m a sinner!

]]> By: Tim http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3843 Tim Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:44:35 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3843 Funny enough just ran across this article (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2012/03/lawrence-krauss-doesnt-know-nothing-literally.html) which touches on the "Nature is all there is" idea, which was discussed as far back as Thomas Aquinas' time (and probably much further back). Anyway, interesting stuff that shows how even very smart people have trouble using reason to prove their point. Funny enough just ran across this article (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2012/03/lawrence-krauss-doesnt-know-nothing-literally.html) which touches on the “Nature is all there is” idea, which was discussed as far back as Thomas Aquinas’ time (and probably much further back). Anyway, interesting stuff that shows how even very smart people have trouble using reason to prove their point.

]]> By: Tim http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3842 Tim Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:27:24 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3842 Hmmm. Seems like these truth claims are based on your personal mystical childhood experience and subsequent faith that Nature is all there is. Which is fine but does not prove anything any more than other religious or philosophical truth claims prove anything. All human belief must at it's base require faith. I guess I'd have to suggest to anyone who finds these questions interesting to continue the search. Nature as God (Creator, Prime Mover, etc.) is an ancient philosophy and has its proponents (usually called animists or pagans) but also has many smart thinkers who call it into question. I've found the Magis Center for Reason and Faith to have some very interesting content concerning creation and a reasoned concept of God. Here is their URL for those interested. http://www.magisreasonfaith.org/. Hmmm. Seems like these truth claims are based on your personal mystical childhood experience and subsequent faith that Nature is all there is. Which is fine but does not prove anything any more than other religious or philosophical truth claims prove anything. All human belief must at it’s base require faith. I guess I’d have to suggest to anyone who finds these questions interesting to continue the search. Nature as God (Creator, Prime Mover, etc.) is an ancient philosophy and has its proponents (usually called animists or pagans) but also has many smart thinkers who call it into question. I’ve found the Magis Center for Reason and Faith to have some very interesting content concerning creation and a reasoned concept of God. Here is their URL for those interested. http://www.magisreasonfaith.org/.

]]> By: aforcier http://anaturalphilosophy.com/2009/07/24/what-is-sin-or-in-nature-there-is-no-such-thing-as-sin-or-sinners/comment-page-1/#comment-3841 aforcier Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:06:47 +0000 http://anaturalphilosophy.com/?p=1554#comment-3841 These are the questions we all should ask. And we must also accept that they have answers.Yes, nature is a self creating matrix.But without a "God", we do not live in the same universe. Everything changes. Tim, if I could ask you to go back and read my intro page "A God or Nature" above, it will (can) give you a first insight on what is meant here. These are the questions we all should ask. And we must also accept that they have answers.Yes, nature is a self creating matrix.But without a “God”, we do not live in the same universe. Everything changes. Tim, if I could ask you to go back and read my intro page “A God or Nature” above, it will (can) give you a first insight on what is meant here.

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